79: Kaz Cooke talks "It's The Menopause" and more

Welcome to Dear Menopause podcast, where we discuss the menopause transition to help make everyday life a little easier for women. Hi, this is Sonya, host Dear Menopause, and are you in for a treat? Today, I sat down for a conversation with Kaz Cook about her recent book. It's the Menopause Now. Kaz probably doesn't need much of an introduction. If you are like me, you probably got through your pregnancies with her book Up the Duff. I loved this chat with Kaz. We wandered all over the place. I hope you enjoy learning a little bit more about Kaz Cook today. Kaz Cook, welcome Dear Menopause. I am so delighted to be here. Let's get right into it. Yes, indeed, kaz. Look for anybody that is listening that perhaps isn't familiar with you. How about you give us a little intro as to who Kaz Cook actually is?

They might know me from my book about pregnancy Up the Duff and the sequel to that which was originally called Kid Wrangling, and then Babies and Toddlers, and also my book Girl Stuff for Girls aged 8 to 12 and then 13 plus. Basically I have form. I have a history of writing physical and mental health books for women and girls and interpreting what doctors say, updating them every year. I write from the point of view. I think a lot of people write books for other women because they say I've got this fantastic theory or this product I want to sell you, or this one way of living that I want to impart. And that is not me. I write these books because I don't know anything and I need to go and research them. From my background as a journalist, I think what that gave me was enough courage to go and ask experts. And then what I realized a couple of decades ago was I also needed to ask women and girls what they wanted. Now my books are associated with very big surveys of real people saying what do you want to know? What are you worried about? What do you love? How can I help you on this subject? The latest one is called it's the Menopause, which is fairly self-explanatory, even if you've got brain fog.

Oh my God, that's beautiful. My brain fog kicked in then for a moment. As the pause indicated, I'm right there with you, darling. Oh my God, that's beautiful. And yes, that is exactly what we're here to talk about. Today is your most recent book it's the Menopause. I personally, up the Duff, was my Bible through pregnancies, so I was absolutely delighted when I saw that you were coming out with your book it's the Menopause, because I really do think that if anybody in Australia is going to tackle this subject and publish a book, you definitely were the woman to do it. Let's dig in and talk about that. And you touched on the surveys, which is another thing that I'm really keen to dive into with you about that, because I know a little bit about the lack of research in women's health in general, but specifically in the perimenopausal and menopausal stages, particularly here in Australia. So we do not have any survey or that has been completed in Australia that comes close to the numbers that you were able to pull for your survey. You surveyed 9,000 women.

Yes, to be frank, it was 8,780 something I think, but we're just under 9,000. And look, I straight away need to say and make it clear I'm not a doctor and my survey is not scientific. So it was huge.

It was an anecdotal survey as well, wasn't it yes?

people opted in to, which already means it's not scientific. So, I mean, the statistics from the survey are really fascinating for me, but that wasn't the main thing I was after. I wanted to hear in women's own voices what their experiences had been, what they wanted to know, what they thought they needed to know and what was fascinating. There were so many fascinating things that came out of the survey and one of them was that, as they were answering the question, have you had any of these perimenopausal symptoms? So many women also took the time to say I have no idea that was connected to hormones. So, like me, when I first hit perimenopausal symptoms, I had no idea that my itchy skin, my brain fog, my crash in self-confidence, my uptick in anxiety were likely to be connected to hormone levels. And then the other thing well, I found out so many things in the survey, including how incredibly furious a lot of women are, quite frankly, that the symptoms that are sort of the glamorous symptoms of the menopause, the way that the media often talks about menopause is either making a joke about it or saying it's only about hot flushes and libido, and that actually is such a disservice to women. And so many women said here are these other things that sex was very painful. It wasn't that they just went off the idea of it. Women said that it felt like they were having, that there were razor blades involved. And I did an interview about a year ago when I was researching and I took pains to explain and you all know all of this but I took pains to explain to the reporter. It's not just about hot flushes, it's about long, heavy periods that are completely unpredictable. It's about feeling that you're not yourself anymore. So many women in the survey said I lost who I was. Anyway, that woman's magazine ran a story about me saying it's not just about hot flushes, it's so important to look at these other symptoms and tell women what to look out for. And they rang me up and said hey, we think it'd be really funny if we came around and took a photo of you with we'd pour a bucket of water over your head and it would look like you were having a hot flush. And I just thought, oh my God, it's so hard to get this message through to some people. But again, I'm not telling you anything. You don't know. But it astonishes me that this is something that happens to 50% of the population and, as you say, there's not enough research. That's improving now, but they didn't even know that what hormones were until the 1930s? And the sexist medical profession much better now, much more women, many more people who care about their patients, and menopause. But by crikey, this is one of the last bastions of, and the stigma is still truly there. I mean, I've been asked during the publicity tour for it's the menopause three times. But could you give this as a present, this book? Wouldn't it be embarrassing? And I'm just going oh my God, this is not embarrassing. We're not over the fact that we can get periods and then we'll stop getting periods and all this other stuff. So, anyway, stop me for God's sake, because I'll go on.

No, but what I'd like to say there is to every woman that is listening, and we are coming up to Christmas. This would be the absolutely best gift that you could give your girlfriends for Christmas. That is absolutely my top tip.

I'm going to make you a medal and send it to you. Thank you very much.

And that does I kind of. I did go down a track that I had intended to, but a little bit earlier that I meant to. One of the first things I wanted to say to you was huge congratulations on its menopause, because it is the first book published in Australia that I have read that I will wholeheartedly recommend to anybody that asks me what is the best reference material for the perimenopausal and menopausal transition. It is unbelievably founded in evidence. The experts that you have leaned into and accessed to ensure that the information in the book is all evidence based. I want to say a huge thank you for including Professor Jayash Rikulkhani. Jay is an absolute ground breaker in her field. I have had her on the podcast twice. Her episodes are still, and I think will continue to always be, the most downloaded episodes that I have. Her work is just outstanding and it is not an area that we talk about enough the mental health impacts on women in the perimenopausal transition. I was so delighted to see that Jay was such a big part of the research and the advice that you received around putting the book together. Thank you, a huge thank you for putting so much time and energy and effort into getting this book together because it is going to be absolutely life changing. I honestly believe that.

Thank you, that is so kind. I really did work very hard on this about making it evidence based, telling us some truths about the claims that women are being targeted with. We are now being described as a marketing opportunity and they are coming for us. They want to sell us herbal and other God even knows what is in some of those things So-called treatments there is not only no evidence for, but they are marketing it using celebrities and using people's own philosophy of not wanting to use medication if they do not have to, using scare tactics that are 20 years old, based on 20 years old information. I really wanted to make sure that my book was not saying you must take medication or you must not take medication. You must do these self-help things or you must or they are useless. Everybody is different, everyone has different symptoms. Everyone has different symptoms between Thursday and next Tuesday. It is very true, it is such an individual and complex thing. Having that conversation in the book, of all the quotes from women in the speech bubbles, I really wanted it to be like my voice, being a friend that has gone and spoken to all the experts, but also the voices of. There were 75,000 answers that I had to read, and I read every one of them. Some of them made me cry, you have to imagine. Some of them made me laugh. Some of them really surprised me. It is kind of look, I do not have a scary job, I do not have a frontline emergency worker, but I do get scared that I am going to get information wrong. I am very careful and that is why I update books.

That was one of the other things that I really was impressed with. It was the mention that you have throughout the book, and definitely at the end of the book as well, under the little blurb that talks about what edition of the book this is. That you do say this book contains medical information and this information is changing, which it is at the moment. We are moving in a very fast pace as more research is being done and more information is becoming available for women in this space, and you do say that I am going to update the information in this book and please ensure that you are buying the most up to date edition, and I think that is absolutely fantastic.

You know, borrow it from your local library. You know that is fine too, but I do want to say to people I am not trying to sell you a product or my philosophy, and I think so much. I mean all these celebrities pulsing around trying to sell their moisturizers or their desiccated powders that look like grass clippings, you know, and it is very hard for women to know which. That is one of the things I do. In the book I have a list of the trusted websites, the trusted organisations you can go to. For heavens sake, don't just Google a symptom, because odds on you, you know, of the first 10 results, 7 will be trying to sell you something. That is right. And I also have a really comprehensive list of what to ask and tell your GP, and people are finding that really helpful, because one of the things I found in the survey was if you have a good GP, it is heaven, you know, and you are a partner in your own health. But for many women they have been told astonishing things by doctors who should know better. Like you just have to put up with this. You are too young to be going. So there is a section in the book on early menopause which is technically before the age of 40, but there is also information for people who may have been told in their 40s that they are too young and they are not, and that idea that menopause happens. You know exactly the date. You turn 51 and everyone has the same experience and it is terrible for everyone, or it is not terrible and people are making too much of a fuss about it. You know, I think humans, they have this failure of imagination sometimes in which they cannot understand that somebody might have a completely different experience. And that is one of the things that I want the book to do with all of those voices is to explain that you might only have one symptom or you might have one that makes your life really difficult. You have a right to have that addressed by a medical team. You have a right not to feel that your life is falling apart mentally or that you cannot go to work because you know your hot flush is the two debilitating. I mean honestly, I wish I'd had this book before I went through it, but this is, you know, at least I can help other people.

Absolutely, and it will be such a help for other people as they are either in the thick of it themselves, or if they are preparers, and they, you know, and they do get their hands on a copy in preparation for what they expect.

I love that idea. Menopause preppers Menopause preppers.

But also I think you know, and a little bit like if I reflect back on Up the Duff, you know I remember passing Up the Duff to my husband in bed at night. You know going I read this bit. You know the ability to be able to share the information with. You know our partners as well. You know to our allies that we really need during this period of time, whether they are our sisters, whether they're our girlfriends, whether they're our partners or you know even our work colleagues.

And our kids so many people and our kids, yeah. Even with teenage kids or older kids who have come home because of the rental crisis or haven't to move out yet. And I think we're I think pat on the back to all of us, you know in. I think we're all. Most of us are better at living with multi-generations now, because we're not so judgmental of each other and we're better at being kind to each other. But I think a lot of women hit menopause at the same time as they realize oh, why am I doing all the cooking, all the cleaning, all the laundry in this house of maybe one, two or three generations? And so one of the things that's useful to do is to reexamine who's doing what emotional labor and what housework, Because I think we sometimes just and instead of just getting into a rage about it, which I certainly did, I do I do wonder if estrogen stops people from murdering their partners.

And actually that makes me laugh. I get it. I went through the book last night and I wanted to because one of the things that you know, as we've talked about, there is such a beautiful balance in the book between the evidence-based you know information and those blurbs, you know, those little speech bubbles of all the lived experience that you've gathered from your survey, which you know, as you say. You know, some of them are literally heartbreaking and some of them are funny as and I went through last night thinking I'm going to pull out a couple to read and I literally couldn't choose which ones to read. But I found one that made me laugh so much and it was from Beth, and Beth is 54. So she's like one year older than me and she says can medication be given to manage the stage when you can no longer tolerate mansplaining and misogyny? And I was like, oh hell, yeah, I'll take some of that, thanks.

There are so many funny comments in the book. There was one woman who said she tried a lot of treatments but divorce was the best. But also, you know, as with every comment in the book, there's a balance in counterpart right. So people had really supportive partners. I mean, a lot of male partners are currently reading page 36, apparently I have heard that which is the list of all the symptoms, sonja and have to be told it's all right, I'm not going to get all of these, but I think that's helpful because then if you only get three, it seems like you're you know, you're winning Exactly.

Has tell us a little bit about the actual writing process for this. So, if I'm right, if I read the acknowledgements right, you started writing this during COVID or you got the idea for it during COVID, is that right? How long was it the actual writing process for it's the Menopause.

Actual research and sort of the, the, the focused research and writing. It's probably taken me about three and a half years, but of course I went. I was thinking about it for years before that, going through menopause myself. It was kind of a logical thing to do once I'd done up the Duff and Books for Girls. It's kind of another life stage, right. Yeah. So, but also because the more I realized how stigmatized it was, how little information there is about about it, how even the people who were talking about it were talking about it in ways that show. I mean, I've even been looking at social media recently and women are asking each other on social media am I having a hot flush or have I got COVID? Or you know, am I, am I going through perimenopause or actually think I've got early dementia? And some of the replies are really kind, but a lot of them are absolute nonsense. So there's still, I mean, and there was one dear woman who said in the survey very dismissively this you don't need any of this whole book because all you need to do is eat yellow vegetables and you won't go through menopause. And I thought, well, that is quite the claim. And then the other thing I did when I was writing, when I was writing the book is. So when I write up the Duff or Girls stuff, it's a very finely balanced thing, right, because you know pregnancy can include things like miscarriage. There are difficult births. You know there's postpartum of depression and anxiety for girls. They can be going through a really serious mental health things. So I'm very careful in the way. So there are cartoons and it's the menopause as well. But you have to be very careful how you write about the more serious parts of a subject. You never well I never make fun of the person going through it. You have to be careful with your language. You have to be careful melding your language and the right facts from and the evidence-based facts. Now I've done that in. It's the menopause as well, but my goodness me, sonia, have I let myself off the chain in terms of my writing voice?

Yes, you did.

I have. Really, this is a far more informally written book in lots of ways in terms of the general voice, because I did go through it. It was, you know, like with up the Duff, there are things I don't want to necessarily talk about. Personal experiences. A, it might not be helpful. And B, you know my daughter doesn't need me talking about private things, but in the menopause I'm single. Now I just felt like I could let myself off the chain. I have never done it before because as a journalist you don't put yourself into a book or into a book. But I talk about the medication that I have taken, I talk about the problems that I went through. I mean, I do make a joke in the book where I say that I use a little plastic plunger twice a week to deliver estrogen cream to the top of my vagina. And I never expected to use the phrase top of my vagina except perhaps as a jaunty greeting.

Was it you that said this? Or did I read this written by someone else recently, where they'd use that same kind of phrase, but they had accidentally, instead of saying a little plunger, they'd written a little plumber?

That was me, it was you, yes, and so I had to go back and correct my typo because, goodness me, I haven't had a plumber or any other trade in near that part of myself, I can assure you, but not for a long time anyway. I did really second guess myself about that. Should I, you know? Is this embarrassing? Should I put this in a, in a book? And then I thought, look, I'm not saying everyone has to do the same thing that I'm doing. I'm not saying everyone will or has had the same experience, but I do want to be honest about this. I don't want to be one of those and I'm not a celebrity anyway but I don't want to be one of those people who sort of flounce into the conversation and go, well, I am feeling marvelous and I'm looking better than I ever have. And although the last chapter of it's the Menopause is really optimistic and full of stories of freedom and encouragement from other women and just a really optimistic chapter, it has to be real right. We have, and I felt like I really have to talk about and I haven't done it before, but I think I've made myself much more vulnerable in this book in sharing my own story, but I thought I've asked nearly 9000 women to share their secrets and their stories, and they did so. Of course I've got to do it too. And but then I sort of forgot that it wasn't just going to be women reading it who are going through menopause, and that information was actually published in a newspaper, weekend Magazine and I thought, oh, what am I doing? But so far, look, I'll probably never have another date, but I don't regret it. And if anyone ever wants to come up to me and say, top of my vagina to you, I will.

Beautiful. I really do think you struck a really beautiful chord in the book of balance between everything, between the lived experiences that you share, your own story, the evidence-based information as well. But hearing you talk about sharing your own story, I actually my takeaway from it wasn't even so much about your story as much as obviously I read it as I went through it, but that's not necessarily what landed on me. So perhaps you, your perception of what people are going to take away from it is a little bit different, because it's you that's in the thick of it.

Yeah, and it was all about me breaking that taboo of being honest and telling my own story rather than being so-called independent. But that can be not a cop-out, but it can give you an excuse not to have your own stake in what's happening as well, and I just didn't want to be dishonest about it, even by omission, I suppose. Yeah, and the other thing is that women are told so many lies and information about menopause that leaves stuff out. You haven't asked me a question about this, but I've just been thinking about it recently and you know that they have those treatments so-called treatments, vaginal laser treatments, and I'm glad you wrote about those as well.

Yes, that cost you. The Mona Lisa touch is pretty much what we're talking about.

A stupid, stupid name. There are other names for it, but basically, not only is there no evidence that it helps anything, either dry vagina or urinary symptoms or anything it costs hundreds to thousands of dollars and the evidence shows that there is no benefit. That the only independent studies.

Yeah, I actually interviewed one of the researchers on the study.

Yes, it's an Australian study.

Yeah, it was an. Australian study and I interviewed one of the researchers on the study and it was fascinating. But, yeah, absolutely no clinical evidence whatsoever that there was any difference for the women that had undergone the treatment to those that hadn't.

And you know we've got to stop calling it a treatment. It's a procedure which costs lots of money and as far as we know and we've done this and they've done the studies does nothing. And a gynecologist said to me oh yes, they came and offered me a lease on one of those machines. It was going to cost $150,000 a year. And so he said that's why people are charging hundreds and thousands of dollars for the treatment, because they have to pay off the lease of the machine, the laser machine, and make a profit.

I can't believe anyone's allowed to advertise it because no, and look, let's be honest here when we say who's actually conducting these treatments and who's buying these machines. They are doctors, they're GP's often, and or dermatologists probably gynecologists as well, I would imagine. But you know, they and this is going to lead into a point that I was about to say earlier they're the people that we trust. They're the people that we are led to believe have our best interests at heart, and yet there is a commercialisation which is what we've been talking about as well through this not only from the celebrities, but also from those that we should be able to trust.

Oh, very well put and I totally agree, and that's one of the things I say in the book. In my opinion, if someone offers this, I would not consult them about my health and that's why I really stress in the book putting together, if you can, a little medical team. You might only need a GP, you might need a GP and endocrinologist, which is, of course, a hormone specialist and or a gynecologist. So it's so important to know what kind of doctor and whether they're listening to you and whether they're up with the latest information. So, anyway, that is one of my pet peeves. That makes me go off like a box of fireworks with a match thrown in it.

Yeah, and rightly so, and we are very much in an environment at the moment where there are a lot of stones being thrown around the whole commercialisation of this whole menopause space. I personally believe some of those stones are being thrown at the wrong people, but there are also people that do deserve to have those thrown at them and we can't just be as I literally just said, we can't just be throwing those at the celebrities or those that have gone off and created skincare ranges or whatever it is, but we also have to remember that there are medical practitioners out there as well that are just as much to blame in this space. One of the things that I did want to say to you, if we backtrack just a little bit you were talking about putting yourself into the story and your feelings around that. I really feel right now that there is a lot of confusion around who to trust when it comes to getting information around their perimenopausal and menopausal symptoms, their treatment options, who to believe, and I really kind of believe that by you putting yourself into your book and sharing a bit of your story, you do actually create a bit of trust there as well in your book by doing that. So thank you for doing that, because I do believe that it does position you as not only an evidenced based author, but also as somebody to trust, because you do have your own lived experience, alongside the lived experience of the women that you've shared.

And one of the things I want to do is say to people we all bring our philosophy or our hopes to menopause. We usually already formed whether we're likely to go to our doctor or a so-called natural solution, and what I'm trying to say to people is see it all as a buffet. These things here. I'm going to just sweep off the end of the buffet and let them sit at the table and let them smash on the floor because they will not help you. But there's still lots of self-help, there's still a lot of pharmaceutical help, but I'm not coming with a philosophy that I want to impose on people. But so many women in the survey said to me what natural things can I take that do the same as prescribed medication? And unfortunately it's not the same. You can say there's no value in some self-help things, but in a lot of products that are sold. Also, I think women are so confused about compounded hormone things that are prescribed for them, in fact not understanding that. That's why I go into a lot of detail about the delivery of patches, gels it's so complex. Is there a shortage of this thing? It's the best way to deliver it. If you're taking estrogen and you still have the uterus. You've got to be taking progesterone, so do you take that in the same product? That's important to go into in detail. Yeah, absolutely. I think people are being told very confusing things.

Yeah, and especially if you're in a situation I spent 45 minutes with my doctor yesterday, which I'm incredibly lucky to have a doctor that allocates that amount of time for me and I'm in a position to be able to afford that amount of time with her as well but there are a lot of people that go in and have these 12 minute appointments with a GP and the information that you need, exactly as you say around. Okay, here's your estrogen. Okay, am I taking that in a gel? Am I taking it in a cream? Am I taking it in a patch? What's the difference? How do I use them? Oh, and now I also need to take progesterone. Okay, how do I take that and why am I taking that, and what are the potential side effects of this, if so?

many women said they didn't tell their doctor about their sneaky wee and weaning when they cough or sneeze A they didn't know it was related to horrible.

Relays it yeah.

B. They didn't realize there might be a simple solution that they can take, even if they've had a cancer in the past. But they can probably take vaginal estrogen even if they can't take medication orally or in another way. So that's quite complicated, right. That's quite complicated to get your head around. You've got to get a good doctor who also understands that. But here are all these women weeing themselves or having that terrible urge that you suddenly need to run to the loo, and they don't realize they can get help for it. They don't realize that half their girlfriends are going through it. Too Many women don't think that can happen to them if they have not carried a pregnancy to full term. So there's all sorts of assumptions and that's the thing that breaks my heart and makes me want to help women with, because I think we don't really just starting to understand how much shame people feel about normal, incredibly widespread problems, and so the more they can at least talk to their doctor about it and understand that it's all connected, the better. But that was one of the things that the survey showed me that I think is very rarely talked about in those daunting stories about menopause.

And then I'd love to know how you feel and this wasn't a question that I had preempted to ask you, but I'm really keen to know what you think about this. So right now in Australia we have just had an inquiry announced into menopause through the government, which personally I was a part of the push for that and I am hugely delighted that it is happening at government level. Interestingly, in the media, obviously, there was a lot of media in the lead up to the vote. I shared my story in a number of different media formats and there was a lot of other advocates and professionals and experts out there as well. We really wanted to make sure that we got the yes vote, if it came to a vote when it went into the Senate. Immediately afterwards I'm seeing in the media articles being written from the complete opposite angle saying can we please stop talking about menopause, because we're just holding women back and particularly in the workplace, this is going to put an end to their careers. Now I know how I feel about it and you can tell by how my tone of voice has changed. How do you feel about when we see these articles come out that are written by women?

It's not only a failure of imagination of what someone else might be going through. It's a failure to understand the medical facts. It's a very bizarre form of there's nothing special about being a woman. I mean, these are the sort of people who presumably think that everybody should go through childbirth without pain relief. It's a very similar attitude. We've got to suck it up. I went through menopause and it was no big deal, so it must be like that for everybody. Don't talk about things that make women's lives different, because we'll all get fired. I know the story you're talking about. It was absolutely outrageous. I'm really surprised it was published, not just because I don't agree with it, but I thought it was absolutely ill-informed. What I say when I talk about, for example, changes in the workplace and changes in the home, which we've talked about to help people going through menopause, is it's not only for women who are going through perimenopausal symptoms. You don't just decide that it's a good idea not to have four-hour meetings because some people might have to change their tampon in the middle of it because they're having a flooding period. You do it because there's a man who's got a returner call from the school, who's got a leave early, who's got an elderly parent who needs, or maybe he's got some prostate problems and he needs to go and weigh himself. Maybe it's medical, but maybe it's something else. What we've got to talk about is flexible workplaces for everyone and how menopause is part of that. There's always a backlash, right? I remember three years ago there were all these stories in the UK media get this saying that people going to the doctor with menopausal symptoms were taking time away from cancer patients. That's how weird this whole women should shut up idea gets. I get very annoyed about it. The other thing I want to say about the Senate inquiry is I think they'll look at workplace stuff. I think they'll look at medical supply of. Why aren't we making, and maybe we can't, but why aren't we making medication in Australia so we don't have the shortage problem?

And why are certain drugs not on the PBS and therefore cheaper for women to access?

So going further than that, I am very angry about the way that I think Australia's regulatory systems and bodies have not protected women against so-called wellness products. There are products being sold now with the word menopause or hormones in the name of the formulation, with absolutely no evidence they do anything. And there is this fight, sort of, I think, between those regulatory bodies. They're running away. This is not my area, so this are not protecting women from marketing, advertising and claims well enough. So I think the regulatory bodies are shirking their responsibilities, either through not being funded well enough. This so-called wellness products are falling between agencies, and that has to be cleared up and that will benefit all of society, not just people going through peri-minute. But I am astonished at what some products are getting away with and the way they advertise themselves, and I would love the Senate inquiry to have some of those regulatory bodies up, sit them in the chair, look them in the eye and say what's going on.

Well, you have the opportunity to put a submission into the Senate inquiry. I know submissions are open until March 2024. So, kaz, there you go, go, put your submission in.

Hi Charles.

Awesome, Kaz. I have absolutely loved chatting with you. I think we could sit here and talk about the nuances and the things that are working us for quite a few hours, but for our listeners' sake, I think we should wrap things up. I am so grateful for your time. I'm so grateful for this book. I think it is going to be absolutely life-changing for anybody that gets their hands on a copy. Go out there, get yourself a copy, borrow it from the Bright Library. Whatever you need to do, share it between friends. Have a book club. What about that? Imagine if it was your book club book of the month, Kaz, I'm going to wrap things up by asking you a question. I often ask my guests what are you reading, watching or listening to right now that is bringing you joy?

I think people are going to look a scat at my answer, but I've become so fascinated with the idea of lying and the truth in doing this book that I'm reading books, some of them up to 100 years old, about silences, spirit mediums and magicians and the women who got themselves out of their difficult lives by being spirit mediums or magicians on the stage. And I'm just going down this rabbit hole and I'm just loving it. I'm just loving reading about women 100 years ago trying to make a life for themselves. And are they lying? Are they entertaining? Is there a good excuse? For if you're helping someone who thinks they're in touch with their dead relative, does that make it okay? So I'm down my little research rabbit hole because I love researching, I love an archive and I love a magician in a frog with a feather hat. So I know it's a bizarre answer, but there it is. Sonia, again, I had to be honest with you.

Love it. I'm honest, that's what we're all about here, and I think that's awesome. You've got me wondering now about what makes a woman decide she wants to go and be a spiritual medium. I love that idea, kaz, thank you for your time, and I can't wait to see what comes next for you.

Thank you so much. It's so great to talk to someone who understands this area and similarly wants to help women, so I'm delighted that we've hooked up, if that's not a bizarre way to respond.

Thanks, kaz. Thank you for listening today. I am so grateful to have these conversations with incredible women and experts and I'm grateful that you chose to hit play on this episode of Dare Menopause. If you have a minute of time today, please leave a rating or a review. I would love to hear from you, because you are my biggest driver for doing this work. If this chat went way too fast for you and you want more, head over to StellaWomencomau slash podcast for the show notes and, while you're there, take my midlife quiz to see why it feels like midlife is messing with your head.