106: Psychological Support During Menopause with Leanne Mulheron

Transcript

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Welcome to the Dear Menopause podcast.

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I'm Sonya Lovell, your host Now.

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I've been bringing you conversations with amazing menopause experts for over two years now.

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If you have missed any of those conversations, now's the time to go back and listen, and you can always share them with anyone you think needs to hear them.

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This way, more people can find these amazing conversations, needs to hear them.

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This way, more people can find these amazing conversations.

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Hey everybody, and welcome to this week's episode of Dear Menopause.

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Now today I am chatting to a gorgeous, gorgeous soul and her name is Leanne Mulheron.

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Now Leanne has a Master's of Clinical Psychology, but today she practices mostly as a menopause and PMDD specialist therapist.

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Leanne, welcome to the show.

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Thanks so much for having me.

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It's great to be here.

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It's my absolute pleasure.

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Now Leanne and I were having a little chat before we hit record, which was kind of funny because I mentioned how, as a host, one of the things I've learned to do is actually to shut up a little bit and listen more, and Leanne said actually, as a psychologist, that's what my job is.

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So I'm a little bit nervous about being the one holding up the conversation here, so I thought that was a funny way for us to start the podcast today.

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Leanne, I gave a really brief intro.

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Why don't you fill in the gaps and tell us a little bit about who you are and how you came to practice in the menopause and PMDD space?

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Thanks, sonya.

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So yeah, my name's Leanne Mulheron.

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I have my own private practice called Affinity Clinical Psychology, and I practice now as a woman psychologist, so I only see women, and have specialised in PMDD, which is premenstrual dysphoric disorder, and also working with women throughout the perimenopause transition.

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So for me, I think my career trajectory was very different to probably a lot of other people's, in that I sort of started my degree and then thought, well, this is not for me, I need to take a break, I need to get some more life experience before I go forward with this.

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So I took a gap year to travel and it turned into a gap 10 years.

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Wow, I forgot.

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I forgot to come back.

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So I was lucky enough to work on super yachts and work with some really amazing people, worked on Richard Branson's yacht with him and his family for a really long time.

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Okay, I've just decided we're having a podcast about a whole different topic today.

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Yeah, nice, it was really fun, and I think it's relevant to what we're talking about today, because one of the things we got to experience was when he was starting an organisation called the Elders, which was this organisation that really believes in the potency of older generations holding the knowledge and holding the power, you know?

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Yeah, so in tribal groups we always went to the Elders for advice and wisdom.

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So he formulated this group and they go into war zones and conflicts and all different sorts of areas to try and provide that guidance about how to problem solve.

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That's amazing.

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How have I not heard about this.

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Oh, it was phenomenal.

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Like we had, you know, nelson Mandela's involved, archbishop Desmond Tutu was involved and these people were all at Richards Island and we got to chat to all of them and see it sort of beginning.

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so, oh my gosh I can now see how your gap year turned into a gap 10, exactly.

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It's hard to come back to reality after that.

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But, um, yeah, I think that's kind of what we're doing in this space, in trying to create some groundswell and hopefully make it a place where our generation is the last generation for menopause to be a surprise, you know, to really educate people, help people, help women now, but also educate women that are coming up and girls that are coming up, so that it's not so much of a surprise and the symptoms don't kind of rock their world.

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Yeah, so after that, came back to Australia, went back to my degree, had a couple of kids, started practicing and I saw women and men and children all across the lifespan, worked with lots of adolescents and then classic sort of textbook story perimenopause happened to me and I, you know, had all the things.

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I had the hot flashes, I had the difficulty concentrating, I had the irritability and the mood swings, and so at that stage I really just pivoted and just tried to learn all I could.

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I did every course I could find.

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I reached out to the UK.

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As you know, sonia, they're sort of much more advanced than we are in terms of knowledge and advocacy.

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I did Louise Newsome's Confidence in Prescribing course, even though I'm not a prescriber.

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I just inhaled everything I could, went to all the conferences, all the congresses, read everything I could, journal entries and just completely pivoted my career.

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And because there's so many gaps there, there's just no psychological support for women and I classic again textbook.

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I thought if this is happening to me, it's happening to a lot of other women as well.

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Yeah, absolutely, and I'm so glad that you had that pivot Now.

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How long ago then, was that actual pivot that you kind of decided to go out into this?

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area About three years ago.

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Okay, I mean, obviously, as we know, the symptoms are probably starting a lot before that, but I put it down to work and kids and just general life, but that was the real.

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You know, I've had early onset dementia, you know, and it's really scary, it's really.

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It's just what's happening.

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The confusion about what is going on is probably one of the scariest parts.

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So, yeah, yeah, it absolutely is.

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That was also my experience at one point.

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And then it's that lack of confidence that the clinicians give you when they don't seem to know, or they also think that it could be something like that, and it really creates quite a spiral.

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So one of the things that I was hoping to ask you was what are the most common psychological effects of menopause that women come to you for help for?

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I'd say often women that come to see me, they don't come to see me and say I'm struggling with perimenopause.

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It's something we get to together, we work our way there and we figure it out, but it's often not the first thing that they say when they sit down in front of me.

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Yeah, that makes sense.

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Yeah, it's often anxiety.

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They might be waking up at 3am and thoughts are spiraling.

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It's panic attacks, you know first time onset or a recurrence of anxiety that they may have experienced before and thought they'd managed.

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It's mood changes, it's irritability, it's shouting at the kids, it's getting angry, it's overwhelmed, it's a feeling of not being able to manage things that before were really routine and that you could handle.

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It's sleep.

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So sleep's huge.

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Sleep is a massive sort of foundational across any gender, across any condition.

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Sleep is one of the things that I'm going to be checking in on because that has such an overarching effect across mood, across concentration.

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So getting in touch with how's your sleep?

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What can we do to help with sleep?

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There's also, for some women, there's a real sense of loss and a sense of grief around losing that reproductive function.

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And do you find that that also leads into a loss of identity as well?

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Because I know one of the catchphrases is that we, I think I've used over time and many clinicians are now saying it's.

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One of the catchphrases is that we, I think I've used over time and and many clinicians are now saying it's one of the most common things that they hear is women that go in and say I just don't recognize myself anymore, I don't feel like me anymore absolutely.

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That's a huge part of it and that's something that sort of therapy can really help with.

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Um, when society values you for something, and for women, that's your reproductive capacity.

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When that goes away, when you lose that, you just are at sea as to who you are and how you navigate moving forward.

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I think society is also, as we know, really against women ageing.

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If you look your age or if you're ageing, you're kind of failed at life for some reason.

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And I find Australia to be a really particularly ageist society.

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Yeah, I agree.

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I agree the whole idea of anti-aging.

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We have all these anti-aging.

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If you're not aging, then you're dying.

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So there is only one other option, exactly.

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I don't fancy that option.

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So I think that is absolutely something that women struggle with, and we've always been kind of programmed to try and be pleasant and attractive and suddenly, when that's shifting, it's really hard to navigate what the next stage looks like.

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Yeah, and I think also, I would imagine, that when you combine that with, for me it would have been, around the time where my boys were leaving school and they were going out into the world to create their own lives been around the time where my boys were leaving school and they were going out into the world to create their own lives, and a part of my identity was very wrapped up in being a mother and being there to provide them with everything that they needed, and when they no longer needed that much from me.

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I found that there was a shift in identity there as well.

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Absolutely.

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You know women are caregivers and when that shifts, you know who am I when I'm not mum to small children anymore, who am I when they don't need me anymore?

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That's how I've wrapped up my identity for all this time.

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What do I do now?

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So yeah, it's really discombobulating.

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I love that word.

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It's a great word, isn't it?

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It's real, it really shakes things up, so that, on top of everything else and all the other stresses that you're going through is so confusing and so invalidating because you just don't know what's happening and how you move forward.

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You know, I still see women coming in with ADHD and neurodiversity questions because, as we know, even for women that aren't neurodiverse, symptoms like ADHD show up.

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You know that inability to concentrate and problems with memory and if you had managed your neurodiversity before now by using all these strategies, often during PERI you don't have the capacity or the added stress brings them all out and you can't mask them anymore.

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So there's a big uptake in diagnosis around this time as well.

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I recently had as a guest on the podcast just before Christmas, my Associate Professor, caroline Gervich, and we talked very much about that diagnosis of neurodiversity and, yeah, exactly what you just talked about.

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You know women that had probably had ADHD at different conditions for most of their life but had been able to mask and had been able to cope, but all of a sudden found themselves in perimenopause and weren't able to anymore.

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Exactly, and that is really invalidating too.

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How have I lived my whole life?

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I've been struggling with this this whole time and I didn't know I didn't have the support I needed throughout this, and then it just all unravels during peri.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Do you find that the women that are coming to see you because, as we've already touched on, they're not coming to you and saying, hey, I'm in perimenopause or hey, I'm in menopause, it's, hey, I'm struggling with this, yeah, have they been down the path where they've been to a GP, perhaps to have that same conversation before they come to you?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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You know, usually trying antidepressants or have tried and didn't find it helpful, were maybe dismissed with.

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You know, that's just what it's like to be a busy woman at this age all different types of invalidation, which to me in this day and age is shocking that the knowledge isn't there of how early the symptoms can start.

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You know, 35 is still within a normal timeframe for you to start experiencing these symptoms.

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So again, women's kind of being gaslit by the medical system in that they don't know what's going on.

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And when you don't know what's going on it's really confusing and hard to find your path forward.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So when you have a woman that presents and you've identified, as you said, you kind of get there together to say we should perhaps look at whether this is perimenopause or whether this is menopause.

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What therapies do you tend to find work the best for these women?

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Well, you know, I really have a really varied approach.

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It's almost like what therapies don't I use?

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That might be an easier question.

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So I'm really really treating the woman in front of me.

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So I don't have a cookie cutter approach.

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I kind of steal and take from all different types of modalities.

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So meeting her where she's at, because often you know it can be a whole spectrum of issues that she's facing.

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You know, some women don't come to see me with any pathology.

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They come to see me because they want to shake things up and they want to work on how they move forward with their best life and are looking for sort of coaching.

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So it's a whole range of different modalities but my core ones are probably CBT.

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So, cognitive behavior therapy.

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That's really helpful because it's getting in touch with your thoughts and what core beliefs might underlie the way you think.

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So you might have a negative, automatic thought that I'm worthless or I'm not good enough, and that may make you behave in a certain way.

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You might avoid things that then might make you feel sad and depressed and you might also have symptoms, like you know, physical symptoms where you know your heart rate might increase or your breathing might be shallow.

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So there's all different ways we can then work with those different functions, all those different factors of the way you're feeling.

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So I also use a lot of ACT.

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So acceptance and commitment therapy I find that really helpful because it's accepting the fact that you are aging and you are in midlife and menopause is a thing, and you can also live a values-based life whilst also accepting that menopause is happening.

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Yeah, awesome.

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I love the idea of those more talking and validating therapies?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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They're so important because that's how we communicate, that's what women do to everyone else, so they're really valuable to us.

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That's how we work, right?

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It really is, isn't it?

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And I guess if somebody doesn't take it upon themselves to perhaps think maybe I should go and see somebody to have a chat, you don't realize how often we don't get that reflected back to us.

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Yeah, 100%.

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And I think you know being with girlfriends and chatting with girlfriends is really important, holding that connection.

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There was this great quote I think it was the professor of psychiatry from Stanford or something, and he said you know, if a man wants to live a long life, he should get married.

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If a woman wants to live a good life, a long life, she should have good girlfriends.

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So there's that idea.

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I know I love that, right.

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Yeah, so that idea that you know that social connection.

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And if you look at the way women have evolved, you know, as the hunter gatherers, we've always done things together as a group, so group therapy can be really a powerful way forward as well.

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Yeah, and I think, like you say, if you've got a really good, strong group of girlfriends, then that can be a form of group therapy.

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But if you're someone that doesn't because not everybody has, for various reasons, a great big, solid group of girlfriends that they want to actually go and be vulnerable with and have these more in-depth conversations, then finding some group therapy or a great therapist is obviously going to be of benefit.

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Yeah, I agree.

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But I see a lot of women that come in and will say I don't want to burden my friends or you know there's still a lot of shame and secrecy around how symptoms manifest.

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You know so for some women they might have friends that are managing okay, you know so they don't want to come in and start with the whole.

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You know so for some women they might have friends that are managing okay, you know so they don't want to come in and start with the whole.

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You know I'm really struggling.

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So I think it's maybe seeing someone and getting some confidence about your symptoms and that they're normal and that it's okay, and then having the chats with friends as well yeah, awesome.

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And what about lifestyle choices?

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Do you find that getting into that nitty-gritty of what is actually going on across all the pillars of the lifestyle beneficial as well?

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Absolutely.

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And you know, one of the great things about having sort of weekly sessions, or however it looks fortnightly, is accountability, right?

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So when someone comes in to see me and we set goals, we set smart goals that are measurable.

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So the next week it'll be checking in like how did you go with that this week, how have you managed that?

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And you know, in in a safe, non-judgmental space, because you know I'm the first one to need a couple of chips or a choccy every now and then.

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So it's not coming from a place of judgment, it's okay.

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How do what?

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What got in the way and how can we manage that for the next week?

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So how, what does that look, look like?

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Moving forward?

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Yeah, I think we need to really recognize all the pillars.

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You know, if the pillars aren't all, don't all have the same amount of emphasis, it's going to be a pretty rocky foundation.

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So I think your diet's hugely important.

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So is exercise.

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As I said, sleep's really important, stress management, which is something that therapy is really good for, and obviously, if you want to choose hormonal therapy or other medications as well, they're available.

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Yeah, fantastic, and I know for myself personally, when I made the decision to stop drinking alcohol, that played a huge part in not only helping me manage my symptoms I definitely had an impact on my hot flushes but I found that it really made a big difference to my quality of my sleep and the thoughts that I had about myself when I was drinking.

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So you know you yeah, it's funny I really noticed that I have different conversations with people when I'm drinking versus when I'm not, and I think there's a lot of research now coming out that shows that a woman in particular's ability to metabolize is one part of it.

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But it's actually more to do with.

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You just can't cope with drink with alcohol anymore.

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Like your system just something changes and you really find that it's something that just doesn't work for you anymore.

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Do you find that you have those conversations as well?

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yes, it's, it's it's.

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How am I gonna wear this?

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It's, uh, sometimes it's really, it's really challenging because often there are two very different opposing views.

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So often women turn to alcohol, to self-manage and to self-soothe and get through this.

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So obviously that's quite a maladaptive way to cope because the stresses are still going to be there when you sober up they say they're probably going to be worse because you're going to be hung over.

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And then where they also recognize that they need to give this up.

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But it's been kind of the security blanket for a long time.

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So there's a part of an intuition, I think, in your body that knows that this is not serving you anymore.

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You know, it's a felt sense of why am I doing this?

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This is not right.

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You know this is not actually helping, but then it's been that sort of crutch for so long.

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So, yeah, absolutely.

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It's very common for women to come in and say, hey, and it's all very sheepish, you know, I think maybe I'm drinking a little too much and working about putting different strategies in place to help cope and different habits, because for a lot of people it's a habit you know, 5 o'clock I can see that glass of wine.

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So it's about okay, 5 o'clock, let's go for a walk, let's do other things, so we're not feeling that same pull to go for the wine.

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I was listening to a Mel Robbins podcast this morning and it was one that was all about morning routines.

00:17:45.670 --> 00:17:56.856
It was actually about setting yourself up with really good morning routines and changing your routine if it's a routine that actually is working against you rather than for you but you don't necessarily realise that because it's your routine.

00:17:58.311 --> 00:18:20.891
But she was talking about the changes, and she actually quoted James Clear, who wrote Atomic Habits, and one of the things that he talks about is that you can try and change as many habits as you like, or you can try and set as many goals as you like, but if your systems aren't right, then that's going to be really hard to achieve those goals and those habits, and so that's what she said your to achieve those goals and those habits, and so that's what she said.

00:18:20.891 --> 00:18:29.699
Your morning routine is a system, and so if your system is not work, set up to work for you, then you're not going to be able to succeed.

00:18:29.699 --> 00:18:42.321
And then, if we take that into what you were just talking about, you know that system, but at the opposite end of the day, so it being that winding down with with alcohol and you know, a glass of wine while you cook dinner, and then a glass of wine over dinner, you know.

00:18:42.863 --> 00:18:44.994
In the dinner After dinner.

00:18:44.994 --> 00:18:46.174
No, the bottle's gone.

00:18:47.390 --> 00:18:50.160
Yeah, it probably does play out like that sometimes.

00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:58.394
But yeah, if we don't, like you said, find something to replace and so therefore create and set up a whole new system, if nothing changes, nothing changes.

00:18:58.675 --> 00:18:59.436
Yeah, absolutely.

00:18:59.436 --> 00:19:00.920
I mean some of it's exploring.

00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:02.561
What do you think this is doing for you?

00:19:02.561 --> 00:19:03.544
You know, how is this?

00:19:03.544 --> 00:19:04.144
What is this?

00:19:04.144 --> 00:19:07.810
Is it numbing?

00:19:07.810 --> 00:19:09.535
Does it make me more confident so I can feel better at parties?

00:19:09.535 --> 00:19:11.018
You know, what function is this behaviour serving for you?

00:19:11.018 --> 00:19:12.060
So that's the first thing.

00:19:12.141 --> 00:19:17.759
And then looking at ways, brainstorming together ways we can avoid that sort of pull of the addiction.

00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:20.584
So, whether it's okay, well, what happens at five o'clock?

00:19:20.584 --> 00:19:22.536
Well, you know, that's when I'm making dinner.

00:19:22.536 --> 00:19:24.270
The kids are screaming, you know, okay.

00:19:24.270 --> 00:19:25.413
Well, how can we shift that?

00:19:25.413 --> 00:19:33.131
When I gave up drinking, I started having like really nice fizzy water and I serve it in a really nice glass of lots of ice and lime and, you know, a little umbrella in the side.

00:19:33.131 --> 00:19:36.756
So it still felt like I was spoiling myself and doing something for me.

00:19:36.756 --> 00:19:40.000
So replacing that idea if that's what you're getting from drinking.

00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:49.851
So, absolutely, it's about problem solving barriers that are going to stop you from giving up, and it's also looking at what's underlying that pull as well, and incremental change.

00:19:49.851 --> 00:19:52.398
You know, you don't have to completely give up straight away.

00:19:52.398 --> 00:19:56.374
It can be okay, let's just make this less until we get to the place where we want to get.

00:19:56.814 --> 00:20:01.941
Yeah, if you get to that place and not everybody will, like you, say Exactly, yeah, awesome.

00:20:01.941 --> 00:20:06.185
So one of the questions that I wanted no, we've touched on that, okay.

00:20:06.185 --> 00:20:16.443
So one of the questions I kind of wanted to explore with you a little bit was around the psychological effects of perimenopause and menopause being undervalued by other clinicians.

00:20:16.443 --> 00:20:18.634
So do you find that?

00:20:18.634 --> 00:20:41.981
I guess that a lot of the stories that I hear in a lot of the interviews that I do, particularly with women that are sharing their lived experience, will be that they went to their doctor and their doctor you know there's that dismissiveness of well, you know your periods haven't changed and you know you don't have hot flushes, so therefore it can't be perimenopause, and there's no kind of further investigation into those.

00:20:41.981 --> 00:20:46.219
You know more mental health, mood, anxiety, kind of things that are showing up.

00:20:46.219 --> 00:20:50.013
Do you agree that it's an aspect that's undervalued?

00:20:51.076 --> 00:20:51.576
Absolutely.

00:20:51.576 --> 00:20:57.839
I think I'm sort of positioned to be able to comment on two areas really, because it's really undervalued and underexplored.

00:20:57.839 --> 00:20:59.304
In my own profession as well.

00:20:59.304 --> 00:21:03.742
I think that in the field of psychology it's not understood effectively.

00:21:03.742 --> 00:21:15.442
I can't tell you the amount of people that have maybe seen a therapist before, and because there wasn't that validation and because the strategies may not have been tailored to where they are in life, it just hasn't been helpful.

00:21:15.442 --> 00:21:17.205
There haven't been practical strategies for them.

00:21:17.746 --> 00:21:30.325
So I think that, as one of the recommendations in the inquiry stated, we really need a cross the board approach to changing education and making sure that psychology and medical health works across the lifespan.

00:21:30.325 --> 00:21:33.021
It doesn't stop when you stop having babies.

00:21:33.021 --> 00:21:34.890
You know your life continues through that.

00:21:34.890 --> 00:21:43.164
But I would absolutely say that so many women come and see me after having, as I said, being given antidepressants or being told that it's just life, deal with it.

00:21:43.204 --> 00:21:50.675
You know, with PNDD premenstrual dysphoric disorder women are often told that you know that suffering is normal, it's part of being a woman.

00:21:50.675 --> 00:21:57.718
When it's completely not, I think society kind of overemphasises women's capacity for suffering.

00:21:57.718 --> 00:22:02.385
In terms of being a woman, your period should be painful and that's just a bit of PMS, you'll be fine.

00:22:02.385 --> 00:22:07.095
I think we really need to get in touch of what's normal, and that happens by talking about it, you know.

00:22:07.095 --> 00:22:09.904
If we're not talking about it, how do we know what normal is?

00:22:09.904 --> 00:22:15.932
Coming back to what you actually asked me no, that's okay.

00:22:15.932 --> 00:22:26.548
Yeah, so in terms of psychology, there's a small sort of handful of us that are trying to re-educate or help our fellow psychologists in understanding what's happening.

00:22:26.548 --> 00:22:27.755
There's some people that are putting out webinars.

00:22:27.755 --> 00:22:36.738
I'm speaking at the australian psychological society conference later this year on navigating perimenopause and that mental well-being very nervous about that, but it's happening.

00:22:36.919 --> 00:22:44.964
So there are people there that are trying to make things happen yeah, it's a little bit like this whole conversation that we're having in this country right now.

00:22:44.964 --> 00:23:09.221
I'm so grateful that we've got little pockets of clinicians probably across all aspects allied health, gps, obstetricians, gynecologists, um, oncologists, and then getting into the psychologists as well and there are little groups of people in there that are all chipping away at making a difference and changing, as you said, right at the very beginning.

00:23:09.221 --> 00:23:19.843
When the next generation or the generation behind them come through, all of this chipping away will have created a big enough difference that they don't experience the same situation.

00:23:20.644 --> 00:23:25.844
Yeah, and I mean change comes from also educating women, but women also demanding better and demanding more.

00:23:25.844 --> 00:23:32.478
So you know, we both know people that have gone to their GPs and said, hey, this isn't good enough, you need to do this, you need to learn more about this.

00:23:32.478 --> 00:23:39.071
Hey, you said it wasn't perimenopause and I needed a blood test, where I've actually found out that it can be assessed based on symptoms.

00:23:39.071 --> 00:23:46.676
So it's feedback, right, and if, if, if they are a great GP, which there are so many out there they will take that on board and they'll go.

00:23:46.676 --> 00:23:48.585
Okay, I need to know more about this.

00:23:48.585 --> 00:23:49.146
Tell me more.

00:23:49.808 --> 00:24:12.237
So I think feedback's really important of feeding that information back to your GP so so that things change yeah, that's a really good point and I think it's something we don't talk about enough and I sometimes feel like we put too much pressure on the women woman to be being her own detective and trying to work out everything herself and I think we do forget to kind of say but you know, you need to go back and tell them.

00:24:12.237 --> 00:24:13.660
It's like leaving a google review.

00:24:13.660 --> 00:24:25.496
You've got to tell them the bad stuff as well as because, like parenting totally, yeah, well, for the greater good they kind of have to yeah, exactly well, you know, get yourself okay first, don't rush back there next day.

00:24:25.516 --> 00:24:30.337
But when you, when you're coming from, even send an email, maybe you know it doesn't have to be if you don't want to go back.

00:24:30.337 --> 00:24:39.035
But you know it's such a confusing and scary time to finally get up the courage to speak about some of these symptoms which can be quite scary.

00:24:39.035 --> 00:24:41.364
Talking about do I have early onset dementia.

00:24:41.364 --> 00:24:53.570
Coming to terms with that and going to a professional who you are hoping to seek help from and then being kind of shown the door without any real information or help is even more confusing yeah.

00:24:53.755 --> 00:24:56.922
And it makes you kind of gaslight yourself, you start second-guessing your symptoms.

00:24:56.922 --> 00:25:01.480
Yeah, so it's definitely something that needs to be looked at and discussed more.

00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:03.862
The more we talk about it, the more, hopefully, it will filter through.

00:25:03.882 --> 00:25:04.924
I hope so too.

00:25:04.924 --> 00:25:09.046
So what's your top pieces of advice for anyone that's out there?

00:25:09.046 --> 00:25:20.696
Maybe they're listening to the podcast and they're starting to think that perhaps some psychotherapy would actually be really beneficial and helpful for them.

00:25:20.696 --> 00:25:28.205
Or they've been dismissed by a GP or even put onto antidepressants but, like you said, are finding that they're not necessarily making a big difference.

00:25:28.205 --> 00:25:31.444
What are your top bits of advice for anybody in that situation?

00:25:31.714 --> 00:25:35.984
I feel like really making sure that you find some help.

00:25:35.984 --> 00:25:37.248
That's menopause informed.

00:25:37.248 --> 00:25:41.369
So that might be checking out the Australasian Menopause Society's website.

00:25:41.369 --> 00:25:52.032
It might be looking at a clinician's website and seeing if they talk about menopause on it or whether it's just, you know, a little asterisk down the bottom or whether it's something that they really work with.

00:25:52.032 --> 00:26:05.343
Because, as I said across the board, whether it's a GP or an oncologist, an endocrinologist or a mental health clinician, if they're not targeting the right problem, they're not going to be able to give the right treatment.

00:26:05.865 --> 00:26:07.387
Yeah, yeah, yeah, good tip.

00:26:07.655 --> 00:26:19.346
So I think yeah, really important and you know word of mouth is always great, so checking in with other people of what they've experienced and becoming, unfortunately, it's advocating for yourself and becoming your own detective too, a lot of the time.

00:26:19.807 --> 00:26:21.410
Yeah, yeah, great tips.

00:26:21.410 --> 00:26:41.182
And my final question for you and I don't know, maybe we've already answered this, but I'm really keen to get a kind of more specific answer to this as a question within itself If you had a magic wand, what would you change about the way that perimenopause and menopause are managed in australia right now?

00:26:41.403 --> 00:26:42.646
no, debbie.

00:26:42.646 --> 00:26:54.222
Yeah well, first of all, obviously I would implement all the changes suggested by the senate inquiry, in particular making access to hormone therapy equitable, preferably free.

00:26:54.222 --> 00:26:55.666
Free would be good I've got a magic wand.

00:26:55.815 --> 00:27:03.442
After all you do, yep um, and I'd like to ensure that clinicians across the board had that training and that education.

00:27:03.442 --> 00:27:13.021
I'd really love it if women could make their own informed decisions about their care, so if all evidence-based treatments were on the table at all times, that would be really helpful too.

00:27:13.021 --> 00:27:15.295
But, most importantly, I'd like to change the narrative.

00:27:15.295 --> 00:27:16.618
You know this is a big wand.

00:27:16.618 --> 00:27:18.063
I got here it is.

00:27:18.123 --> 00:27:21.759
I'm gonna make some big changes, but it's powerful, so it's okay, exactly.

00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:26.540
I'd also like to really change the narrative around menopause and women aging in australia.

00:27:26.540 --> 00:27:43.463
As you said, australia is particularly ageist, so instead of kind of viewing it as always and essentially a time of decline and deterioration, exploring the potential for change Positive psychology is something I use all the time in trying to make this a window of opportunity and a window of growth for women.

00:27:43.463 --> 00:27:52.804
Some women are struggling to get out of bed, so that's not going to be on the agenda, but for other women it's a spectrum of experience and everyone's experience is as unique as they are.

00:27:52.804 --> 00:28:08.962
So for women that are managing okay and want to look at the what's next, so I think, really exploring the idea of having a menopause me too movement where we all just open up and share and get vulnerable, kind of break down those boundaries and talk a bit more about what it's like for them.

00:28:09.262 --> 00:28:17.674
You know women are often kind of praised and raised to be the you to favor, uh, to favor attachment over authenticity.

00:28:17.674 --> 00:28:25.744
So getting back to authenticity, and you know we're always the caregivers, we're the ones that look after everybody, we're the family shock absorber.

00:28:25.744 --> 00:28:27.111
You know we absorb all this stuff.

00:28:27.111 --> 00:28:37.097
So for a lot, for a lot of women when they come to see me, there's all these patterns and all these core beliefs that aren't serving them and that particularly start to get a bit shaky around perimenopause.

00:28:37.097 --> 00:28:44.965
So trying to get back in touch about what do authentically I like, like, what am I interested in, what are my wants and needs and how do I find joy.

00:28:44.965 --> 00:28:49.185
So exploring that, I think, is also a really great opportunity.

00:28:49.394 --> 00:28:50.377
I think that's brilliant.

00:28:50.377 --> 00:28:55.981
I think that that's a great wand that you've just waved across Australia and perhaps globally as well.

00:28:55.981 --> 00:28:57.445
That would be amazing.

00:28:57.445 --> 00:29:16.712
But, yeah, I love those notes that you just finished up on then, and I think that it would be so amazing if we could just get women into that place to be more authentic and to share more vulnerably, no matter who you are, and we need to see those within society that do hold role model positions.

00:29:16.712 --> 00:29:26.041
You know, however, they achieved those, but they're the people that most often we look to to base our own experiences on whether that's right or wrong, but we do.

00:29:26.041 --> 00:29:32.490
We need them to be a whole lot more authentic and transparent about what's going on for them as they age, rather than this whole.

00:29:32.490 --> 00:29:35.441
The world's a wonderful place and I'm doing awesome.

00:29:35.441 --> 00:29:37.257
Yeah, I don't agree more.

00:29:37.317 --> 00:29:37.901
I couldn't agree more.

00:29:37.901 --> 00:29:39.288
It's going to take women to change this.

00:29:39.288 --> 00:29:41.499
It's going to take women to shift this narrative.

00:29:41.499 --> 00:29:45.634
It's going to take us not buying into that sort of ageist bullshit.

00:29:45.634 --> 00:29:57.038
It's going to take us shifting that of what it looks like to be 50, you know, exploring that and only supporting movies and companies and people that also understand that and support that.

00:29:57.038 --> 00:30:12.946
You know there was I was watching this video and it was Naomi Watts coming around and talking about what her perimenopause journey was like and kind of doing a bit of a me too, you know, being open and sharing, and everyone else at that round table was just kind of nodding their head and looking a bit nervous and no one else shared that.

00:30:12.946 --> 00:30:18.263
Shared because you know, and I understand the fears there, that there's such a negative stereotype against aging.

00:30:18.263 --> 00:30:19.817
But that is what it's going to take to shift.

00:30:19.896 --> 00:30:21.442
But that's what we need to shift, isn't?

00:30:21.442 --> 00:30:25.576
It it's what is driving that fear underneath everything.

00:30:26.038 --> 00:30:45.107
Yeah well, if we kind of deify this idea of the perfect woman who has no wrinkles and is a size eight, and if that becomes what we think of as what we need to aspire to, then when you don't meet those expectations which 99% of us don't you feel like you've failed, and that's another thing to lump on a woman's back, unfortunately.

00:30:45.569 --> 00:30:47.575
Yeah, it's a pretty big backpack we're wearing, isn't it?

00:30:48.736 --> 00:30:49.175
I'm over it.

00:30:49.175 --> 00:30:49.856
I'm putting it down.

00:30:51.218 --> 00:31:07.347
I think I put mine down and I think for me I've talked about this a lot and you touched on it that for some women, this opportunity to really get clear on what it is that you want and what brings you joy and who you want to be in what I consider to be the next or my second act or third act or whatever it is.

00:31:07.347 --> 00:31:17.846
But I love this space and I have become much more confident and I have become bolder.

00:31:17.846 --> 00:31:30.519
I don't think I've put down everything from that backpack, like there's definitely a few little things that I'm holding onto there, but I was able to put aside the really big things that I know weren't serving me any longer and I chose not to bring them forward with me.

00:31:31.421 --> 00:31:32.463
Sonia, that's amazing.

00:31:32.463 --> 00:31:33.866
That's wonderful, I think.

00:31:33.866 --> 00:31:42.945
I think sometimes we can know intellectually things that we should do and ways that we can move forward, but from a felt sense, like it still exists in our body somewhere.

00:31:42.945 --> 00:31:48.761
So I feel like getting in touch with what's behind all these things, like why do I think like that?

00:31:48.761 --> 00:31:50.823
Exploring and getting curious, not furious.

00:31:50.823 --> 00:31:57.526
So if a thought's popping into your head like why do I think like that, it's because society has trained me to think like that.

00:31:57.526 --> 00:31:59.542
Or you know, this is what happened when I was a kid.

00:31:59.542 --> 00:32:02.403
Or you know, oh, no wonder, because all these other things are happening.

00:32:02.403 --> 00:32:09.229
So, instead of getting frustrated and furious about something, start trying to explore what the thought is or what the behavior is.

00:32:19.394 --> 00:32:22.364
And then when you kind of give yourself that distance, it's really much easier to see what's going on than when you're kind of stuck in your head.

00:32:22.364 --> 00:32:23.508
Yeah, I think it's a really lovely note to finish up on.

00:32:23.508 --> 00:32:25.795
We explored that whole fact that you know it isn't the end of life, it's not the end of our years by date.

00:32:25.795 --> 00:32:37.280
There is this window of opportunity, and when we are able to get to a point where we can jump through that window, it really gives us the opportunity to set ourselves up for a wonderful next part of our lives.

00:32:37.883 --> 00:32:38.605
Yeah, absolutely.

00:32:38.605 --> 00:32:42.742
Look, some of us might need a boost up to the window, but I think we're definitely stronger together.

00:32:42.742 --> 00:32:56.067
It's about sharing experiences, supporting each other, recognising that if it was a breeze for you, it might not be for someone else, so they might need some extra support and valuing everyone's experience and everyone's journey to get through the window, I know.

00:32:59.615 --> 00:33:11.346
And the other thing, sorry, I feel like we keep coming up with new things here, but one of the things you just mentioned, then, which I think is really important to touch on as well, is, even though it might look like it's been a breeze for somebody else, what you see versus what has actually happened are often two very different things.

00:33:11.346 --> 00:33:28.759
So and I'm really conscious of the fact for me to sit here and say I'm now in this space where I feel confident and I'm bold, and you know, I'm looking at what I'm doing for the next half of my life, it's taken me this year it'll be eight years since my medical induced menopause to actually get to this point.

00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:32.603
So, and they were hard years, they weren't easy years, that you know.

00:33:32.603 --> 00:33:43.303
There's a lot of work that goes into it for a lot of people, and so the other great saying that I love is we should never judge ourselves by somebody's chapter 35 when we're on chapter three.

00:33:43.864 --> 00:33:44.546
Great point?

00:33:44.546 --> 00:33:50.021
Yeah, absolutely, and you know it's great that you can validate that and reflect back that.

00:33:50.021 --> 00:33:55.143
I'm here now, I'm kind of at the peak, but I can see your journey ahead of you up the neighboring mountain.

00:33:55.143 --> 00:33:57.028
I think that's really important.

00:33:57.509 --> 00:34:00.609
Yeah, and that comes back to that transparency and authenticity, doesn't it?

00:34:00.609 --> 00:34:01.015
Absolutely.

00:34:01.035 --> 00:34:01.435
So when we?

00:34:01.596 --> 00:34:04.182
are transparent about that and we are authentic about that.

00:34:04.182 --> 00:34:10.847
That does show those that are coming up behind us that it's okay when it's hard, because it's actually hard for everyone.

00:34:11.295 --> 00:34:13.438
Yeah, and it's okay to kind of suck at this.

00:34:13.438 --> 00:34:14.581
It's all new for us, right?

00:34:14.581 --> 00:34:18.367
If we consider menopause to be a developmental stage and something we're working on.

00:34:18.367 --> 00:34:21.382
We're much more compassionate to adolescents and arts their hormones, you know.

00:34:21.382 --> 00:34:28.018
We'll give them a break and we'll let them get away with a bit, because they're navigating this shift in identity where they're moving from child to adult.

00:34:28.018 --> 00:34:29.702
For a lot of women, that's the same thing.

00:34:29.702 --> 00:34:33.322
We're shifting, we're pivoting completely to a whole new stage.

00:34:33.322 --> 00:34:39.887
So allowing, allowing self-compassion, you know, changing our expectations so that we won't be treated in a certain way.

00:34:39.887 --> 00:34:41.514
We will advocate for ourselves.

00:34:41.514 --> 00:34:44.588
We'll be compassionate towards ourselves and our fellow sisters.

00:34:44.588 --> 00:34:48.742
I think that's really important as well, to remember that it's okay to suck at this.

00:34:48.742 --> 00:34:49.264
To start with.

00:34:49.264 --> 00:34:50.206
You're just getting used to it.

00:34:50.206 --> 00:34:56.387
Your brain's also adjusting to the different hormone balances, so it's okay, everything's okay.

00:34:56.387 --> 00:35:00.887
Whatever experience you need, whatever support you need, whatever is going for you is okay.

00:35:01.875 --> 00:35:05.023
I love that and that is such an important message to end on.

00:35:05.023 --> 00:35:07.715
I think that, wherever you're at, it's okay.

00:35:07.976 --> 00:35:14.461
Absolutely, and whatever experience you have is valid and whatever help you need, whether it's lots or none, is also valid.

00:35:14.461 --> 00:35:16.246
And okay, yeah, awesome.

00:35:16.514 --> 00:35:18.681
Leanne, thank you so much for our conversation today.

00:35:18.681 --> 00:35:19.704
I've really enjoyed it.

00:35:19.704 --> 00:35:49.202
I hope that everybody listening is able to take away a little glimmer of something that might be helpful to them, or if this perhaps prompted you to think about maybe a friend or a family member that is maybe struggling in this area, then please share the episode with them as well, because I think that when we listen to others talking about what their authentic experiences has been, and we can hear from someone like Leanne, who works so closely with women in this space, that's where we can perhaps get the courage and the confidence to actually go and seek help for ourselves.

00:35:50.164 --> 00:35:52.762
Absolutely, and thank you for your amazing podcast.

00:35:52.762 --> 00:36:02.539
I think women find it so gratifying because I know you speak to all different types of people across all different experiences, and that's so important to know that there's not one cookie cutter experience for everybody.

00:36:02.539 --> 00:36:04.181
So thank you for the podcast.

106: Psychological Support During Menopause with Leanne Mulheron

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